Social media companies became so obsessed about maximizing ROI on short form video content that they stopped being a platform to share with friends and turned into Temu Youtube. You won’t see your friends stuff on any of them because it’s designed to work that way. Group chats are the only way to have a meaningful conversation if you a casual non-technical Internet dweller.
This is so sadly true. I nostalgically remember early social media with the linear feed of things directly from friends as being a fun and positive place.
Back in 2005-ish era, I helped reboot a college club (I was the coach/advisor).
We started out using forum software to co-ordinate what we were doing but eventually (2008-ish) switched to Facebook as the president of the club pointed out "Alex, everyone is already on Facebook and the notifications from us are in the middle of the notifications for when the next party is" etc.
Fast forward to today and the club is rebooting again. I asked the current club president "What social network is everyone on these days?" His response: "Really there is no one place where everyone goes anymore." I then asked him how clubs share their info etc and he says "The bulletin board at the student center?"
While social media definitely has its downsides (echo chambers, extremism etc) I do feel like it's a bit of a net loss to not have a "commons". That model makes it super easy to start up new organizations, get the word out etc.
Part of me hopes that we got back to the late 1990s dedicated websites/forums. That seems to be the Discord model but let's see.
There is nothing wrong with the bulletin board at the student center
It works
It's kinda sad that members of a club have to share their private details with some third party focused on surveillance, data collection and targeting ads in order communicate with other members. Not to mention the possibility of "age verification"
When used for public notice, the benefits, if any, over the bulletin board at the student center are probably not worth the hassles
I love bulletin boards. We had one in the apartment I used to live in. There is something about getting help/helping out super local people.
South African here. Just about all notifications have moved to WhatsApp. Most school classes have a group for the parents, extended family group, immediate family group, residents association group, high school classmates group, gym class group, home town group ... the list goes on. Sounds like a lot but most groups tend to have few messages.
The terminology explains what happened.
The Zuckerberg movie was called The Social Network. At the time we saw the likes of Facebook as networks intended to build 1-1 communications.
Since then, it’s become social Media. It’s now about centralized structures broadcasting messages to subscribers and followers. The only difference from the past is who the broadcasters can be, but it’s no longer about building networks between people.
Today it's discord, we just don't call it social media because it's private by default with no intent to force you into a networking & self-disclosure hell hole
I always hated how everything moved off independent forums and onto facebook. Zuckerberg was right about with his early idiots comment.
True. Here in Europe WhatsApp is the new social media. Especially WhatsApp groups.
In that sense it was a smart decision of meta to buy it.
Most of my friends are on Instagram too but nobody really communicates there. The chance of missing something important is way too high.
Google Groups still exists. Easy enough for organizations to use for sharing announcements.
I think we’re seeing a similar thing pan out with AI. When the barrier for something is too low, people realize that it’s not actually worth the other party’s effort to communicate it to them.
For me, physical communication is quickly becoming a signal that someone actually put effort into things.
Why not group emails?
There's a guy that runs multiple sports teams at a local recreation center, in multiple adult divisions (wide age/culture rage), and he has been using email to great effect for over a decade that I have known him. I get 2-3 weekly emails about teams that need a sub for a game and those spots continue to fill up quickly. He probably has the majority of regulars (in the hundreds) at that sports center on his various email list. It just works. They tried chat groups once and that was a disaster.
I've never seen "group emails" working, even when amongst technical people.
Part of it is just how emails work, part of it is how each clients work, part of it is people not knowing/caring.
You'll have:
- the guy that don't use the group email address as recipient, but personal email address
- the guy that change the subject which starts a new thread/discussion
- the guy that include all previous emails in their answer
- the guy with a signature that takes two screens to scroll
- the guy with an awful text font/color
- the guy that CC their whole address book, including the group email address, for personal stuff
- ...
I have.
For hackerspaces, tech meetups, book clubs, cycling clubs, city cleanup volunteer groups…
It works fine.
Don’t let your bad experience ruin it for everyone. Especially with an administrative backend, email-based distribution and comms works great for smaller groups!
Subject lines shouldn't be relied on to identify emails. In-Reply-To / References exists in most clients if the mailing list specifies a Message-ID...
Subject lines have always been the best way and most emails could be nothing but subject line if blank bodies were allowed.
But because subject lines are more work and people who love sending email tend to love it because it is very low effort, the venn of email senders and those who write subject lines is small.
Here’s how you do it: <https://www.jwz.org/doc/threading.html>
That site seems to serve offensive images¹.
(¹yes, it seems like you can work around it by going to the URL de novo, … but IDK, doesn't seem worth it.)
even in the best scenarios, a well organized group of people is not using all the features of email "properly" to say nothing of groups that are supposed to have the general public.
> Why not group emails?
Yes, email is the absolute best for opimal reach. All the proprietary platforms are inherently fragmented and gatekeeped by their corporations. Trying to find a common denominator is hard. Email is standard, not owned by anyone and thus universal.
Why not group emails?
Email is a push technology. And the receiver has to manage their inbox for the sender’s enthusiasm.
2-3 weekly emails
A web page could update in real time. It would be more work for the sender. And less work for everyone else.
discourse combines web forum and email, people can use either one as they see fit.
for events specifically, Partiful seems to be the thing in my area finally displacing the Facebook events model, and it's a lot less bloated.
This is what the Bluesky “AT Protocol” is meant to solve, though I fear it might be a bit too late.
Except AT Protocol can't do the very thing that made Facebook the commons: privacy.
There's a proposal to add privacy to the protocol (private posts, private groups), but I don't think anyone has solved the real root problem with trying to implement privacy in a federated system (as opposed to P2P), which is the bad administrator problem. The proposal I saw still relied on trustworthy app administrators to respect a post's privacy settings. And that's a huge flaw.
Friendica and Diaspora both have the same problem, and to my knowledge don't have a good solution for it. They both just sort of hand wave it away.
I'm waiting to see if someone comes up with a good solution for the unsafe admin problem, but so far I haven't seen one.
?!
The commons became the commons again, instead of being partially or completely trapped on Facebook,
and you’re upset?
Bulletin boards are awesome.
Physical assembly is awesome.
> Part of me hopes that we got back to the late 1990s dedicated websites/forums. That seems to be the Discord model but let's see.
Well, thanks for lobbying, that's got regulated away. One must be mad today to run a forum.
"thanks to lobbying". if you use "for" it sounds like you are adressing the OP and he did the lobbying that you don't like.
Yes, I meant "to". Thank you.
I tried hard but am failing to see how what you say couldn't just be fulfilled by a chat group today (or even back then).
But which one - SMS/RCS? iMessage? WhatsApp? Signal? Telegram? Discord?
Funny, every time I've joined a new group for dancing or art classes or DnD or anything it's always 100% of the time a WhatsApp group, no questions asked. (This is in Ireland).
Never occurred to me that Americans wouldn't have a common group chat app everyone uses. Do Americans not all use iMessage, since pretty much everybody has an iPhone there?
Around 58% of American smartphone users are iPhone. It's a lot, but not enough to be universal. In my family there's 5 iPhone users and 4 Android users, amusingly similar to the national ratio.
Apple has famously made its strategy to use iMessage to enforce exclusivity. If you want to reach everyone, it's not iMessage. And Whatsapp in the US is worse, closer to 1/3.
What people miss about the US phone market is that while it's almost 60% iPhones, the vast majority of the top half of the income spectrum use them. I'm not sure if it's the same as it was a decade ago, but being excluded from iMessage group chats was a real exclusionary move for many teenagers.
at least in the US, most people are fine with iMessage/SMS since
* pretty early on the vast majority of phone plans started bundling unlimited text messaging, which IIRC was a big motivator for using messaging apps abroad
* because of the vast scale of the country, domestic coverage results in no roaming for the places Americans spend most of their time, unlike in Europe where there are multitudes of countries you'd be passing in a one to two hour flight. Roaming charges in the EU were only abolished in 2022, late enough that everybody has settled on apps as the best way to manage that now.
* many American plans extend unlimited messaging to Canada and Mexico, the two likeliest places that Americans would go to abroad
That's a weird perspective. Certainly not everyone has an iPhone. As for other messaging apps, I also see widespread use of GroupMe for certain domains like sports teams. Some clubs also run their own Slack channels.
Americans primarily use iMessage/SMS/RCS. You only need one messaging app and everyone has it pre-installed on both iOS and Android.
WhatsApp does not solve any problems for the typical American user. Most Americans don't install WhatsApp unless they spend a lot of time overseas some place where it is required to do anything. Even international group chats seem to be more Discord-based in recent years.
>Do Americans not all use iMessage, since pretty much everybody has an iPhone there?
I'm Irish and travel back and forth a lot. First, not everyone has iPhones, Android has 40% of the market.
Older generations use Facebook to manage their clubs. I'm increasingly seeing Whatsapp and occasionally Signal for younger and more tech-savvy social circles. Facebook is non-existent in sub 35 year olds. Its just taking longer to switch over (or away from) Facebook given how tech savvy older folks are here compared to Ireland.
I'm probably the wrong person to answer since I don't and never have used any social media, but it seems like groups here mostly use Instagram.
Or just iMessage with fallback to SMS for those not on iPhones. Unlike most of the rest of the world, iPhones dominate in the USA.
WhatsApp is paramount here in Spain. Telegram a strong second. The rest non-existent. Though I use discord for global reach interest groups. Never for local communities. Small ones are always on WhatsApp. Big ones usually telegram.
When I ran a student society we used an email mailing list.
You can have two if necessary, one only for announcements and one for discussion.
This tends to run into problems with people not actually reading their email, especially when the messages are falsely classified as spam. That might not be a problem if all the members are on the same school mail server but it's problematic for general usage.
Many people don't read their email anymore. When I send an email I often have to send a text message to the person telling them I sent an email or they won't see it.
> Many people don't read their email anymore.
I don't see how that would work as in many jurisdictions, email is an accepted legal way to communicate between a company and a customer. So when you don't year your email that's like not reading your snail mail in the 90s. It might go well for some time, until you miss that one message about a late payment or something...
A large number of services that send various billing etc things via snail mail and email also send text messages. The other part of this is that almost everything is automated these days for most people. Bill payment etc happens automagically. Most necessary notifications occur via phone apps.
Ignoring email works just fine, as evidenced by the fact that the majority of people I know don't check email unless it is for their work. Zero impact on their lives. It is the same with snail mail. I think I check my snail mail 6-8 times per year mostly so that the letter box doesn't physically overflow with junk.
Exactly this.
Plus the notifications for chat groups are basically:
- show me everything
- don't notify me at all
Discord is a bit better about that with "pings"
Whatsapp, that’s the one everyone uses
I think there is less cost to being in multiple chat platforms than multiple social media platforms.
E-Mail! :)
Whatever the group owner picks, same as it's always been.
No one cares about the actual choice, only that it is made.
> No one cares about the actual choice, only that it is made.
If the actual choice requires me to install an app then I care quite a lot and will probably decline to join in.
I don't think that I am the only one who feels this way.
Then life moves on without you in the club.
Unless they are chosing something super obscure and sketchy, most club members are going to be fine with the leader just saying, we're picking whatsapp, either join or dont.
I have Messager app fatigue at this point (where I live).
- Doctors offices and official services use SMS.
- Some of my close family and friends use Signal (on my pressure).
- The distant boomers use Facebook Messenger
- With the younger people they use Snapchat.
- Almost everyone else in the country uses Whatsapp as that's the dominant messaging app.
- My friends who live in Berlin use Telegram
- Online communities for tinkering and foss projects require Discord.
God I miss the 2000s.
> God I miss the 2000s.
Exactly! Having to check 27 different places for messages (also add individual sites like linkedin, etc, where people message), it is completely ridiculous.
Just send me email. It's universal, standard, no corporation owns it (thus no corportation can shut me out unlike facebook or all the proprietary solutions).
Social media as it was born touched a novel point of contact that didn't quite exist before. It was a powerful shift from what we had before.
Social media allowed you to be in touch with people in a way that wasn't possible with phone calls, text messages, instant messaging, email, or domain-specific forums.
What I could do in Facebook in 2010 was stay "friends" with selected acquaintances such as old classmates with whom I never was in email terms, messaging terms, or any other terms except having known them in school (or at work or at a hobby or...) I could follow their life via their posts, and I could leave a comment, sometimes, without any expectation that we should ever talk, meet, chat, or become more than old classmates. I haven't sent email to anyone in my school that I didn't know outside of school, as a friend. I don't have their numbers and it would be awkward to even consider calling someone with whom we didn't necessarily even talk much in school. But it was perfectly okay to ask someone to be your friend on Facebook (like, Hey, I know you? and if he did remember he would accept) and follow their postings and maybe (re)kindle something with no pressure to grow it into anything more than that.
We had that. Now... we no longer do. Or we still have Facebook and we can send friend requests to old acquantainces that I'd like to follow but there's nothing to follow because they aren't posting and because Facebook wouldn't show me their posts. So we're back to the point where actually making contact with another person (on Facebook) basically requires sending them a message in Facebook. Which already goes beyond what's expected from an old acquantaince on Facebook.
I recall a site for classmates where you could register to your school years and see your classmates there. But that was before social media and there weren't any posts that you could comment. You could just see your classmates listed there, and one in ten might have written a few words in their profile. And that was classmates only, not ex-work colleagues or other people you've passed behind in your life. Facebook was really good at the time it became a thing.
We still have email, instant messaging, etc. but what's the platform today where I can keep in touch with people I'm not emailing or talking with? Is there one?
Back to 2015, I stopped posting on Facebook when I noticed that it’s no longer about connecting with my friends, but a never ending stream of boring posts from groups and people that I don’t know or care to follow.
All my “social” life just moved to direct communication in WhatsApp (meta owned as well)
We really need a real facebook app again, something we only use with close friends or people we meet irl to become friends
I am currently building something where you can post once per day. If you want to post again within the 24 hour window, the prior post gets replaced with the new one and it also shows at the old post's timestamp in the chronological feed.
As for connecting to people, you drag and drop the connect button into a folder name which you want their posts to show in. For example, You can create custom folders for friends, family, coworkers etc. After that, you drag the connect button into that folder. And each folder creates a custom feed from only those people for you.
I am open to brainstorming more ideas.
2015 for me too. I wonder if there was some early day over juicing of the attention mechanism that put people off in that year, before they tuned it to reduce churn…
Yeah but I think it just took some year for ppl to notice.
2013-2014 the algorithm got more foused on non-friend posts aswell as making the prioritzation less about "likes" from friends and instead some opaque engagement metrics. Groups had to "promote" post to get their prior reach to subscribers.
Also videos started to be posted around that time?
Tinfoil hat time but I think they definitely did _something_ at that time that "changed" the system. It's the Cambridge Analytica/Trump time and I believe that FB definitely "changed" at the same time.
After Cambridge Analytica, my "intelligent" friends basically abandoned the platform, while my distant conspiracy inclined uncles started posting baseless slop.
I noticed last year that FB did some change to their recommendations engine, that they’ll show posts by random people based things you’ve searched. A friend was diagnosed with cancer last year, I searched extensively, and now I’m exclusively getting posts from random people with cancer on my feed.
It’s often very good at finding posts that I might theoretically want to read, except that I never want to read them on Facebook, because it would get in the way of seeing posts from friends.
Isn't that how it has been?
No, it used to be a shuffled timeline of the posts and likes your connections/friends have made but I guess when half your platform are bots, you don’t want to store that metadata anymore.
Remember the little dot in the end of the feed when you saw all your friends posts?
> Eventually, I left almost all my groups behind, keeping only the ones tied to genuine relationships.
That's why my only social media is WhatsApp, if that's a social media.
To keep people engaged, social media platforms have shifted from showing you content from people you know to prioritizing viral content. The algorithms know viral content offers an endless stream of entertainment that keeps people scrolling longer.
Fb is clearly hated by its owners, Meta. Its been monitized to the max and deeply neglected. They desperately want to move on to virtual reality or AI - ANYTHING to escape from having to make their money off fb.
Makes one wonder what it would be like if someone else had built and maintained it who really belived in the vision of connecting communities instead of sucking them dry.
"Viral content" got nerfed to oblivion in 2013-2014 something when Facebook made companies pay up for group exposure. (Promoted post)
Before that a popular article could be shared among different friends networks to like total exposure to like everyone logged in that were somewhat interested in the article.
I was kinda a journalist then it was a really obvious flip.
Like the writer I'm also a 'boomer' still keeping connected to an older friend group using Facebook and Instagram. For Facebook, I use the plugin "FB Purity" to filter out the generated cr*p posts and force chronological order. It's shocking too see how few posts are left, by agressive algorithm filtering and FB then deciding that "You're all caught up", refusing to show more posts. So my FB time is about 20 seconds every day...
Yes because people no longer post they realised they need to show you their “explore” feed.
I stopped using Facebook back in 2021 when the majority of my feed was reshared political content with 20+ comments from my friends fighting about divisive social/political issues. It wasn't fun, and it wasn't fostering community, so I left. A few years later I logged in again to see that most of my Facebook friends had also stopped engaging.
I've noticed that a lot of my friends switched from text based status updates (Facebook) to image based status updates (Instagram stories). Personally, I got tired of going on Facebook because it was all rage baiting political stuff, and that was all from friends, not even ads.
Instagram stories seems to be dieing too, except for the professional and business accounts I follow
The bar is just so high, everywhere.
I want to fire off a quick quip and have a conversation.
Reddit is probably the only place where this works any more, but you have to be prompted by the right thread and early.
So people throw up their hands and go, "why bother?"
Discord seems like the way. Sometimes, Signal groups (also popular in the White House).
This is an ad for Incogni
Like every pcmag article, there’s a corporate sponsor
Probably a crazy though, but I sometimes wonder if the pandemic/lockdowns did a number on social media activity too. Maybe a lot of people got burnt out on the whole thing after spending 2-3 years stuck inside with social media as their only way to communicate with friends and family.
That seems to be the point where most communities and social sites I'm on lost a lot of their activity/enjoyment, and where people seemed to start fading away.
Of course, increasing polarisation, an increasingly aggressive/selfish population and worries about privacy probably hit hard too.
Emotions experienced chart - that is insightful and matches my anecdata.
I think you get bad emotions when you have high expectations about social media and it is your main source of social life. Where positive happen when you have low expectations about social media and it is just addon to your life.
Example of gaps is being lonely, low self esteem, low self worth, no work network, no business network. So you stay glued to FB to build your life, to keep online friends, because you may have not many in life. Or you have no real work network so you need to stay current on LI because your next job is there.
We're all in small groups on discord or in signal now. FB feed is just not the best medium for keeping up with friends.
Idea of keeping up with friends while being public to the whole world does not resonate with me. Internet was a different place indeed.
It seems like so much of social media is just individuals shouting into the void.
It's stochastic communication, sometimes other random voices come back from the void.
Social media is a skinner box for likes and reposts. You don't even want replies unless it's an opportunity to get more likes.
Not sure if I see a bad thing in this. I'd like too know what old friends are currently up to and checking their social media has been a way to do so during the golden age of facebook.
Lately I feel more value in connecting with them personally, talking and letting them now, that I am still interested in what's going on for them.
That's great if you're cultivating a very small group of friends who are local.
Social media is how I keep vaguely aware of what's going on with my friends who now live scattered across the planet and get to see in person once per decade or so.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. At the very least, it should be used occasionally to post things as a kind of "public memory," not to expose your entire life just for likes and exhibitionism.
I wonder what would happen if: if I post 2 pieces of content, my friend would have to comment on the first one to see the next one.
I suppose the app will then mostly be full of throwaway comments in the form of "Cool" or "Wow". But maybe add a modifier that if the poster doesn't have any meaningful reply to a commenter's (let's name him Elon) comment, then the poster's next content will not be shared with Elon next time.
Twitter and Reddit went hostile to their users in 2023 with their respective API and other changes. A small percentage of leaders sought out newer and better options and this time the followers stayed where they were, not wanting to start over again. But everyone talks about hating social media now and they're going slowly inactive. It's the most expected outcome.
I think we stopped posting because it's a miserable, unnecessary experience made worse by miserable unnecessary technology
Strava is now the preferred app in my social network. And no "status update" is necessary as it does that automatically.
Social media these days is 80% psyop, 20% attention grind. That 55% of Americans stopped posting would be a healthy thing.
4chan realized this decade+ ago. HN has no self awareness its being used as a plaything.
Social media mostly polarise people (both women and men, in different ways) and generally speaking what you post will be used against you at some point.
So yeah, no wonder that social media is dying. People are just catching up to the fact that the best way not to lose is to just not play the game.
sounds conservative